Unknown Speaker 0:02
Welcome to my podcast leaving religion and those really behind I am your host Amanda Joy Loveland. And as always, I am so honored and thrilled that you are here. Just a reminder to go follow me at Amanda dot Joy dot Loveland on my Instagram page to get the latest and greatest as well as when new podcast episodes drop. And make sure and leave me a review a five star review on Apple podcasts. And follow me there, share with your friends, like subscribe, all of those fun, fun things that we get to do. And I just wanted to read if you have the reviews that I have gotten, this is from XCVGHO N, the tone I needed as I transition, I've stepped into my faith transition more fully in just the last couple of months. There are several posts of Mormon podcasts which have been helpful, but this podcast resonates the most. I so appreciate the lack of negativity towards the LDS church. I also appreciate the spirituality of each guest who has been interviewed I want to find God again. And these guests are meaning meaningful mentors to me. That was one of the beautiful reviews another one from Danny, bro. Oh five. I am really enjoying this podcast hearing other stories about leaving religion makes me see how we are all more alike than we are different similar stories with different details. This podcast is a community of people turning away from being told what to do in turning in order to ask themselves. Thank you for the reviews that have been left. And again, if you can leave me a review, share like and get this more out there to really assist each other in faith transitions and finding God again, we really are here to support each other. And as always, head over to my website, Amanda joy loveland.com And make sure you are subscribed to my email list. I have some really beautiful freebies that I'm creating and some new things that are coming down the pipeline. So make sure you are on my email list to be the first to know. And without further ado, let's dive into my interview today with the beautiful and amazing Michelle Money. Are you ready for this? I'm ready. So this rainy morning, although it's not raining, right this minute, I am sitting down with the beautiful Michelle Money.
Unknown Speaker 2:26
Hello, my dearest friend. Yes. It's one way to know so dumb.
Unknown Speaker 2:31
I know. So damn, it just happens, right? Yeah. Why though? We've known each other for a long ass time. A long time. A long time. fishnet fishnet tights out in the salt flats, baby girl. Oh my gosh. I guess I have to explain what I know. Yeah. Now you have to explain that. Yeah. When I owned my bod. I hired Michelle is one of our models. years ago. Yeah, I'm gonna six I was still married. I was married to my first husband. Till 2010. Nine.
Unknown Speaker 3:02
It was right after the bachelor. I feel like, wasn't it?
Unknown Speaker 3:06
I can't remember it was right before right after it was right around there. Maybe it was
Unknown Speaker 3:10
right. I don't remember. It was right around that time. So like 2011 or something?
Unknown Speaker 3:16
I think we may have. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 3:18
I don't know. We might have worked together before. And then we worked together again after and then I don't know,
Unknown Speaker 3:21
point being we've known each other for a long time. Yeah. And I loved it. I love it. So I love that we become friends.
Unknown Speaker 3:27
You know what's so cool is it's been fun to like, have you kind of because you've always been like 27 steps ahead. 2727 there's 27 steps that you I don't know about that? No, like you just always been so much further down the road in your spiritual evolution, that you kind of been a mentor for me. And you have been a mentor for me in so many ways and kind of like a safe haven kind of like I mean, yeah, like when I was transitioning out of Mormonism and all this all the things like you have always been such a safe place.
Unknown Speaker 4:06
Man glad that that's the case. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, you really have so but I don't know that I'm 27 steps ahead and I mean, we're all that's the thing it's like everybody else is there is their journeys. It's like nobody's ahead of another but
Unknown Speaker 4:19
I don't know you know what, though? I do think there's something like how do I explain this like at least growing up Mormon for me like for me to actually like, you kind of get stuck in the in like, when you finally have this transition, like the transitioning part is like very Can you can get stuck in it. Oh, yeah. Right. And so I think like people actually live in that space for so many years of like, anger and resentment and blame and, and I think that you, among other people have really helped me to like, evolve through that space in a really healthy kind of like more fluid way that has just helped me to get farther in my own spiritual path?
Unknown Speaker 5:04
Or because really that anger stuff does keep you stuck. Mm, I can't even really come to the healing know, that you're wanting, or the, or the reason why you chose to leave, like when you're when you're sitting there and that Yeah, and that resentment and that pointing fingers. It doesn't there's no movement and it's like sitting and standing. And I
Unknown Speaker 5:23
can I remember that part of my journey like very clearly. Yeah. And so. Yeah, thank you for helping me push through that.
Unknown Speaker 5:32
You are so well, I'm glad that I'm glad that I did. And I'm glad that you're sitting here and that you're so willing to share your story. And well, it's
Unknown Speaker 5:40
funny, like, I don't really, you think that the story kind of like ends, but it just continues like as far as like, leaving the church goes, because you think it's just like this? Oh, yeah, I just left the church. And I've just kind of moved on. But it's interesting as you start peeling back the layers and kind of like realizing, realizing how much of your, like, kind of the essence of who you are is built around this structure.
Unknown Speaker 6:06
Hmm. Especially when you're born and raised. Yeah. And so it's like, there's still,
Unknown Speaker 6:09
there's still stuff I'm trying to, like, mourn. Yeah. And work through and reconcile that. It's just kind of a never ending journey. I've realized,
Unknown Speaker 6:21
yeah, I think. I think that in general, who was I talking to yesterday, about this, I feel like, I'm becoming more and more aware that at the core of us, what we're trying to do in this life is actually peeling back the layers. And whether it's tied to religion, or, or trauma that you had when you were a kid or past life stuff, or lineage stuff. Like we're just constantly peeling back the layers because ultimately, we will do want to be embodied, and our sole essence of who we really are our high our higher self and live this human existence. I do. I do believe that is a big part of why we chose to be here.
Unknown Speaker 7:06
You know, it has to mean it has to be I would, I would think so.
Unknown Speaker 7:10
Yeah. So you were born and raised in Mormon? Yeah. In Utah. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 7:15
Yes. And let so I have five siblings. And my mom comes from an incredibly devout Mormon lineage family. And then my dad was also raised Mormon went on a mission. And then my mom and dad were married at 18. And then my mom's pregnant at 19. Wow. So super high. And I was the second I'm the second oldest of six kids. And yeah, we were raised. Like, we had the articles of faith memorize, like, by the time we could like talk, like, we could not watch PG movies. They could only be G Oh, wow. We grew up without any. We never had cable growing up. Like, we I never grew up with MTV. We did not shop on Sundays. Like we were really devout, devout, but I will say it like, my mom and dad were so like, just filled our home up with love. And, I mean, it was just like, a very family focused like, it wasn't, I don't know, like, I have beautiful, beautiful memories of my childhood and, and, you know, we were very involved in the community and in our, in our wards and, and great friends. And yeah, like, I It's so funny, because I do have I do have like a lot of incredible memories growing up in the church. So, and a lot of people tend to have some resentments or situations that happened. But I can truly say that, like my experience within the church has been wonderful, you know. And so down the road, like, gosh, probably when I was like in, it's probably 13. My dad actually started doing like some, and this was like before the internet. So he was like, checking out books and reading books and doing all this research on the history of the church. And he ended up leaving the church because he did have no idea. Yeah, he he kind of did his own, like homework on it and really studied it and really came to like found out found out a lot of the truths that now we can just easily like Google, and and he was like, I can't live a lie anymore. Wow. And it was really really hard for my family and my mom, it was just devastating. Well, I can imagine but yeah, he took his garments off and he stopped going to church and he he did not make a big thing over it like he did not sit us all down and try to convince us of anything. He, he just truly sat back and allowed himself to just live His truth. And, and, and my mom raised us in the church. So
Unknown Speaker 10:11
she said, yeah, and with all of you how was that growing up?
Unknown Speaker 10:15
It was really on. At first, it was really difficult and confusing. And, um, gosh, I hate even saying this out loud. But I think that, just to give you a sense for how deeply embedded and ingrained the church was in my brain, then I could not fathom that, that he that he could just leave the church. And in my mind, I like, I was like, he must have done something so awful, he must have cheated on my mom, and he just doesn't want to confess. And he feels so guilty. And like, these are the stories I'm making up in my head, because I cannot sound I did not understand. And I was just like, No, he, like, that's where my might like. So I was really, really heartbroken about it. And especially when I got married, because I ended up getting married in the temple, and he couldn't be there. And you know, I just remember being like, I just want you to be there. And he's like, I'll be there when you get out. You know, and, and I'm very fortunate because my dad ended up passing away of colon cancer, but before he did, I was able to apologize to him for how, how I judged him, and, and I had also started my own journey of kind of, like leaving the church, and he was kind of like, a really great anchor for me. And I think because of his example, that he, like, he had left the church and you think in your mind that there that like, Oh, now he's gonna, he's gonna do be drinking, and he's gonna go down this dark path. Like, that's what you're told is that, like, you're good to go. Like, that's just this dark, evil path, right? And my dad was had more integrity had more like, love, and just kindness. And so his example is what really helped me understand that really good people, like are not members of the church. And I think what my dad did was he broke the cycle. And so he allowed he he created space for you know, now out of six kids, only one is still a member. Your mom's still Yeah, my mom's my mom is incredible. She's, she is like, Yeah, I mean, we can talk about her later, but I adore my mom. And she's incredibly faithful. And so, yeah, I just, I think that between my dad kind of leaving in a very, like, just honoring his own truth, and not trying to convince anyone of anything. And just seeing how my mom and dad continued their marriage, you know, having completely different faiths, and how devoted they were to each other. It really created a lot more balance in my life, but I didn't realize at the time, and now as I'm older, and I can look back, I'm like, gosh, I'm so grateful, right. So grateful that not only my dad honored his truth, but that he didn't try to push on anyone. You know, like he really did, kind of, I think, honor and respect my mom enough to say, like, you can, whatever the kids want to do is fine. I won't try to convince them of anything. I'm just gonna let them you know, and I think that really paid off. And I know for me personally, yeah, down the road is I kind of went through my own transition.
Unknown Speaker 13:34
Wow, what a beautiful example. And oh, yeah, especially that was how many years ago? Like yeah, I
Unknown Speaker 13:39
mean, I mean, we don't have to divulge
Unknown Speaker 13:41
how old you are
Unknown Speaker 13:42
members are Irish for me. No, I'm fine with that. But yeah, I was like, 12 or 13.
Unknown Speaker 13:47
Yeah. So I mean, almost 20 years ago, for him to leave. And that, especially in such a peaceful, beautiful way. Wow. What an example.
Unknown Speaker 13:55
Yeah, that's awesome. I must have been younger, who feel like you were younger than 13. What crate is 13
Unknown Speaker 14:02
Let's see what my Mikey is in like, 817.
Unknown Speaker 14:05
Um, uh, no, I was younger. I was like, 10.
Unknown Speaker 14:09
Okay, so Wow. Yeah. So
Unknown Speaker 14:11
it's been
Unknown Speaker 14:12
wow, I didn't know that about your story. How cool is that? That was really, really cool. And to still be able to have, because your parents were had a great from what I under saw you had a great marriage. Yeah. I mean, they,
Unknown Speaker 14:25
they really just respect each other. Yeah, of each other. You know, as I when I turned so my dad left the church, and I was a very, like obedient child. I was very like, as far as the church goes, like, my mom was such an example to me of someone who was so faithful and just so and I will say, like, I had a strong relationship with God, I had, like a strong connection to something higher than me. And so, but when I turned 15, I started I was in a relationship with a boyfriend, my boyfriend at the time. And I got pregnant at 15 years old. And when I, my mom was actually with me, when I found out, and she was so good to me, she just picked me up off the phone, it's like, it's gonna be okay, everything's gonna be okay. Like, everything's gonna be fine. And the way that my family and my ward at the time, like really showed up for me, is really beautiful, like, I made the decision to place my son for adoption. And so 16 And, yeah, I went through this incredibly difficult, you know, life altering experience that, you know, when you're Mormon, it's such, you know, that's like, this sin that you've kind of like lived with is now this external thing that everyone knows about. And, you know, I had the choice to like, go fly to California and live in California and do it as a secret and come back. And it was like, No, I wanted my family and I wanted the support of my community. And I'll never forget. Bishop Edwards, Korona Edwards, he's the best man, he was my bishop. And he was so loving to me when I told him and he sat down with the young men and young women and brought them all together. And he said, one of our, you know, youth is found themselves pregnant, and we will support her and love her. And, like the whole community like, and granted, I know, people were talking crap about me behind my back. But as far as like, as far as like, the way that I was, like, the way that I was, like, portrayed to my, my ward, was in this very loving and compassionate way that really helped me find the strength to actually follow through with like, placing this child for adoption. And so even in my darkest times, like I have nothing but like love and beauty and gratitude for my upbringing, and for the church, you know, and it's taken me a while to get there. But I can look back now and be like, Wow, I was very blessed.
Unknown Speaker 17:15
Mm hmm. No kidding. Because that's not. I mean, everyone has their unique stories. And I love that yours was from such a place of love.
Unknown Speaker 17:22
Yeah. I know. That's so cool. Lucky.
Unknown Speaker 17:27
So what you got married in the temple? I know, you went through a divorce and had some different things transpire in your life. But what, what did kind of start the catalyst to hey, I'm not going to choose into this anymore. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 17:38
I think for me, like, I really, I think, especially after having being pregnant, and everyone knew that I had committed this sin of having sex before I was married, I think I kind of doubled down on trying to prove my worthiness to people. And, um, so like, I came back and like, went to high school and was just like, really trying to be this really good Mormon girl, you know, and I really wanted to be my mom, like, my mom is like, the perfect example. She's so Christ, like, she is so kind, she is so selfless, she is just so obedient. And I wanted to be my mom. And I remember kind of having this moment where I was, like, you know, I really don't, like I really don't like wearing my garments. And I really don't like, you know, that I can't go shopping on Sunday. And I kind of just, like, slowly started, like, letting myself be more of myself, and stop trying to be like, my mom. And along the way, I just kind of was like, first of all, I started working on salon Zazu. And it was my first job at a salon out of beauty school. And a lot of the guys that work there were gay, and I'd never been around like gay men, I've never really been, like, exposed to that culture to the, to anyone like that. And so I came into the salon and was like, very, very, like, enamored, and, like, fell in love with these gay men. And I could not, like, wrap my head around the fact that like, my church was created this belief that they that if you're gay, you are sinful. And so I started really having to reconcile that. And it was really difficult. And along the way, you know, like, I, I was doing movies for or doing film, or makeup for film, hair and makeup for photoshoots and stuff like that. And I remember these late night, you know, working through the night and so I started drinking coffee. So so tired, right? So like, started drinking coffee, and then I was like, so wait, I can't drink coffee, like or tea, but I can have Diet Coke. This is very confusing like that. That whole like Word of Wisdom stuff started kind of like, crumbling before me a little bit. And then um, I think what really what really happened for me was I had thought that I was supposed to do all of these things to be happy and I'll never forget, I was Brielle was like just a baby and I had gotten married in the temple to like a worthy Son of God. And I had my first child, and I was 24 years old. I was in my house just like being a housewife. And I was like, Wait, is this it? So this is it. Hmm. Like, so wait, I'm just gonna be so I'm supposed to be like a stay at home mom now and just like, raise kids. And this is my life. And it just felt like, it felt like such a no for me. Like, it felt like, there's something bigger out there. Like, This can't be it. Yeah. And I was so unhappy. And, and granted, I got married very young, and my ex husband and I were not compatible. But, you know, I, I think that for me, I was really, I just wanted someone who would like love me. And that was like, a Mormon because I felt so much shame around the fact that I had had sex before I was married. Yeah. And I kind of struggled with that. So anyway, started kind of unraveling as far as like, the gay community goes, like loving these men and not being able to, like, make that work. And then the Word of Wisdom stuff was really not working, and then just have my happiness was not I was not happy. And, um, and then kind of just surrendering, surrendering to the fact that like, I can't be my mom, and I just need to be who I am. And that kind of sent me on this journey. That ended in like me getting divorced. And then just not going back to church. And that's when I went, like, kind of just kind of walked away. It wasn't because of anything that had happened to me, no one was disrespectful to me, it was just very much like I just needed a break. You know, so that's when I actually went on The Bachelor. And then I did bachelor pad and then I, and then after bachelor pad. And that is when I had a friend one of my clients. She I was doing her hair at the time. And she was like, Have you ever read?
Unknown Speaker 22:20
What's it called the CES Letter? Oh, yeah. And I was like, Wait, why? And I'll never forget it. Because, um, she's she emailed me and I was on a flight to New York like the next day, and I read the whole thing. And by the time I landed, actually, no, I read it on the way back by the time I landed from New York to Salt Lake City, I remember being like, I remember being so mad. And so like, just that cognitive dissonance where you're just like, Wait, hold on here. Wait, what have I did, I just read and it just kind of broke me open again. And that's what led me down this very, very, like, deep dive into is this church true? Like, I placed my son for adoption to a family. That was Mormon, because I believed so strongly in this religion, and now, I'm finding out that this, there's so many, like, so many, like, lies that were fed to me. And I made this big decision based on this lie. And so it was really disheartening to say, you know, there was just a lot about it, that brought me back open and made me really mad, and looking at my past, you know, kind of having to reevaluate the decisions I'd made and the choices I'd made. And I did all these things, according to this belief, and now it's just like, not even real. And that was like, a few years of like, lots of shaundalyn. Lots of like, actually, I'll never forget this. I actually, there was this blog at the time called ex, ex mormon.com, or something. Yeah. And I had reached out to, to him, the creator of that website, the phone or that website. I said, I'm, I'm desperate to find out some answers, would you please be willing to meet with me? And, and then I also met with this seminary instructor or seminary leader. He was in charge of the seminary program or something like that up in Logan, I forgot his name. But I said, I need you to help me with this. And so in the same day, I went to lunch with the seminary guy, and I said, this is what I've read. Can you please Is this true? Like Are these like, Did Joseph Smith really like translate the Book of Mormon with a rock in his hat? You know, and like, The Book of Abraham, like all of these things that I had discovered, and he just he didn't really have Have any he just said, Listen, you have to have faith. You just have to have faith yourself have faith and he had nothing. And I think to be honest, he was a little stumped himself. And so funny I was downtown at Macaroni Grill, and I, I'll never forget it. And he got up and his, his wife was there. And he they're very kind, very kind people. But I just remember being like, I think I just rocked his world. You're like, and like he walked. Yeah. And he got up and he left. And then the other guy from ex Mormon walked in, I met them in the same place at different times. And I went and sat in a different table with him. And I'm like, I need you to help me understand this. And he's like, here's the deal. And he broke all of it down for me. And he showed me all the evidence, and he was very loving about it. He wasn't. But it was like, I needed to know the truth. And I left that day and my whole life was changed. I was like, wow, okay, I've been lied to. And a lot of the things I thought were true, or just whitewashed and not even accurate, and this, and then I became angry. That's when I went into the angry. resentful. Mad phase. Yeah, yeah. And that was fun for a few years was INTELLIWHITE. Oh, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 26:11
Did you ever watch murder amongst the Mormons on Netflix?
Unknown Speaker 26:15
I did watch that. Yeah, that one. Yeah, I did. I had
Unknown Speaker 26:19
no idea. So I never read the CES letters. I haven't had. I haven't had a desire to do it. I know. I'm for me. I know enough. Yeah. Just like this isn't this isn't my church. This isn't for me. Yeah. You know, and I, so I haven't needed to read it. Yeah, um, but watching the that the murder amongst Mormons. I'm like, in a six. We were I mean, this was when we were alive. Like this. Isn't that long ago that this happened? And yeah, we don't really? I don't ever I don't remember this. Did you know watching it? Oh, the bombings?
Unknown Speaker 26:54
And we're never told any of that. That was never even
Unknown Speaker 26:56
the Prophet going up on the podium and talking about I don't remember.
Unknown Speaker 26:59
No, I was so young at the time to my mom remembers it. I, my mom's like, oh, yeah, I remember all that happening. And the CES Letter is a beautiful, beautifully written, it's by Jeremy Russell. And he basically compiled is it says, like letter to his to, like,
Unknown Speaker 27:17
for his wife or something? Yes. Yeah. I'm just sorry, behind. It's basically
Unknown Speaker 27:21
the best like, document you could send to someone that's just like, here's all the evidence, here's all the here's everything that you told me, here's everything that is actually true. And here's the links to everything to support it. And a lot of it actually came from the the church's website, it's just hidden in the archives of sounds like,
Unknown Speaker 27:39
Well, the thing is, is religion is something that man has created. There's no question in my mind. I mean, when you go back to history, and you go look at the religions that were created, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, it was always at the whim of some man. Yeah. And again, this is what happened with Joseph Smith that supposedly received this inspiration. But, you know, maybe he while he may have had good intentions, it's still created by a man. And at the end of the day, you know, here's the box that you're supposed to, you know, fit in and form into, and, and there's different things that have been put into play that it is a business.
Unknown Speaker 28:17
Yeah, it's a business. You know, when funny, like it takes, it takes a while to Well, it took a long time for me to get over. Even not part of it. Like, where now I'm just like, here's the thing, like, so yeah, I went through the anger. And then now I'm in this place where I'm just like, I truly have, there's nothing about it. That's even kind of true for me. And I actually think that maybe Joseph Smith was like doing mushrooms or something? Well, 100% I think there was like, definitely, like, some psychedelic experience that he was, like, yeah, kind of like, I really do believe that, but, and I look at my mom, and my mom is the best person I know. And she has devoted her life to Christ and to the church. And it is such a beautiful way for for her to live and for so many people to live. And there's nothing about it, that I don't want any ill will towards them, and I hope that it just thrives and is there for the people that need it. But like, there's nothing about it that I don't sit and think like, well, what if the church really is true? Like, I just think it's just like a, it's just like an avenue for people that actually could be really helpful just like Catholicism and, and just like Buddhism, and you know, of course, we're all gonna have these different beliefs. And so I think I look at it now and I have such a love for it. Like it took me a long time to get to where I am now. Like, Oh, I loved my bishop and I love like, I love the primary songs and I love that I grew up like, you know, really having I like, I love that we had to get up and give talks. You know, like there's something about that, that really gives competence as a child and having to be part like the young women's president, like all of the things that you actually, that made me who I am today, many of that is many of those things come from being in young women's and being, you know, a beehive and be, you know, all going to camp and you know, like having, like getting up and bearing my testimony in front of the church and playing the piano of being the pianist in. You know, there's so much like, I'm so grateful for it. Yeah, I'm so grateful for I wouldn't go back and change one thing,
Unknown Speaker 30:32
right? I'm the same. Yeah, the same. There's a lot of things I have learned. In fact, sometimes I think, because my kids are all they've all chosen out. And we went to a baby blessing for my granddaughter, I can't believe my baby. But we went to her baby blessing. Now my kids are like, we don't want to go to church, and they're so uncomfortable going in. And it was interesting, because there's that part of you that, you know, they get to choose what they want to choose, right. Yeah. And then there's the part of me that it's like, I'm also forcing them to go to this because this is family and we're going to you know, the other Yes. But I I'm, and I kept having these conversations in the car of hey, just relax, take a breath. And just try to observe just notice, like, go in with some curiosity of just watching and listening to the things that are said and because on some level, it is fascinating, just interesting. As if you were just doing research to different religions, and totally, you know, and I my daughter, especially, she was really having she's, I'm like, what, what is going on? She goes, I feel so uncomfortable. Wow, I don't like being there. Wow. And that, you know, it's an interesting dynamic and, and at the end of the day, I do think that it is. I feel like when we do go through this process of healing, we do come to a place where we can sit back in a chapel. Yeah. And not necessarily really, you know, want to be there every Sunday, but we can sit there and go Hmm, okay. Yes, it's interesting,
Unknown Speaker 31:59
a lot of peace to many people's lives and, and just be an observer
Unknown Speaker 32:02
of what they're choosing and how it's bringing them joy. Totally. You know,
Unknown Speaker 32:08
it's funny because I look at Brielle,
Unknown Speaker 32:12
she's seven, she's 1616 That's right. Her likes are the same age. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 32:18
16 years old. And you know, her dad stayed in the church, and I had left the church. So she kind of grew up with these very different upbringings, these different homes, these different energy different. And, you know, she she was, you know, maybe four or five when I was really in my anger phase. And she, she basically, never really wanted anything to do with the church. And she tried and she'd go with her dad, but she just never really felt comfortable with it. And she really struggled because she knew that her dad Well, she believed that her dad would be mad if she Yeah, told him that she didn't believe in the church. And, um, you know, so I think back, you know, like, did I have any influence with that, you know, like, did I influence her? Because I was happen to be going through this like, part of my life when she was young was Did she absorb any of that and did she anyway, but it's funny as as I kind of look as now that she's, like 16 years old, and I look at, you know, and I'm thinking about, Oh my gosh, life is so different. And when I look back at my life, when I was her age, like I had a community of support through the church that Brielle doesn't, she kind of has to her dad, but she's, it's not really there, you know, and sometimes I'm sad. Sometimes I wish that I would have just kind of taken the role that my dad took and just kind of pushed through and continued taking her just to create like the safety net of community for her because as I've gotten older and with everything going on in the world right now like I think that is the thing that i i wish Brielle had more of his community and around a higher power around something bigger than what's going on here. And a connection with a higher source and I know that Brielle feels that but she doesn't know what it is, and she doesn't really have a solid footing on like, you know what that means for her. And I sometimes feel bad like I sometimes wonder if I did it wrong.
Unknown Speaker 34:37
Yeah. Well, I think that's what we do as parents all the time, right? Yeah. We're always going crap that I screw up this kid and how you know, and yet to what you were saying earlier, constantly unwinding pieces. Yeah, that that you have ingrained in you because you were brought up in the more in the Mormon religion. And that's something that our children don't have. And and that I think is great beauty. Because without question in some of the hymns and some of the conditioning and some of the programming, you know, the shame that you're talking about the guilt, the whatever these pieces are, I think it's beautiful that she's questioning what that looks like for her. Yeah. And I noticed with me just recently, I've been asking my kids, you know, do you believe in God, because I do want to make sure that even though we're not religious, we still are spiritual, and they get to determine, you know, is there a god? What does that look like for me? Do I have a relationship with that and, and try to have open conversations around that. I mean, you know, my home's very energetic, and we were always into the woowoo stuff, but we don't talk about God a whole lot. And so that's something that I've been trying to do a little bit more lately, because it's it's similar. It's it is this interesting paradox. And I think in a lot of ways, actually, our kids will have more gifts that they get to cultivate at a younger age. Yeah, I do believe that. Like intuition,
Unknown Speaker 35:59
Brielle has really like amazing spiritual gifts.
Unknown Speaker 36:03
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I
Unknown Speaker 36:04
know. She does. Yeah, yeah, it's a trip. So I think I think where I've, where I've kind of landed is like, like, everything is real, and nothing is real. Like, it's like, this life is whatever you want it to be. And you know, like, leaving an organized religion and like going through, like, my own journey with spirituality and going down all these different paths, and just realizing like, nothing's right, and nothing's wrong. Like, it's really just a choice. It's like, what do you want to experience here and as we're kind of like, embarking on this new like, kind of like unchartered territories in the social media world and online, and just this lack of sense making and inability to, like, actually know what is true and what is real. I find myself longing for organized religion, again, I find myself wishing I still believed in the church back because it was very easy in I mean, it wasn't, but it was like, This is what you do. And this is how you live. And this is what is right. And this is what's wrong. And this is what's true. And this is what isn't. And there's something about that that is really, like, helpful to the mind. Right? Our minds like to have that kind of like, clarity. And yeah, you know, and so, I've found that in the last few years, like, even just my whole view of the world has shifted so drastically. And, you know, just politically and with, and with spirituality, and with going through my own shadow work and seeing how, like broken we all are, and how everyone's just projecting their own stuff and how it's just madness. And it's like, gosh, wouldn't it be easy to just go back to like, family home evening on Monday nights, and reading our scriptures together as the family and you know, there is something about that, I think, can be cultivated in your own way. But there really, there's no, there's nothing that I have found that has replaced that the comfort of the church for me in my life, it has it created a really beautiful sense of comfort and security in my life that I'm very grateful for. And I see the importance of it now. And sometimes wish I could go back to
Unknown Speaker 38:45
Yeah, I'm, I shared with you before we started, I'm, I'm re editing a book that I published, then took off took down and then anyway, I'll be republishing it soon, but I was re as I'm re reading through it again. Yeah, I'm reading through a journal entry that said similar similar things have, you know, I am kind of missing the simplicity of having someone it really it comes down to having someone else tell us what to do. 100% And there's no question that this path is harder because it stretches us more because it's it's forcing us to go inward and doing for me part of my church quote unquote, churches, my daily practices, you know, of my meditation and having those often open conversations with my kids and doing the different things that that remind them that that God is within that they can tap into that at any time. Yeah. And I think that because sometimes it feels really hard. It is tempting to go back to something like that, even when we don't believe it's true. And the reality is, is you and I both can never step back. Well, never say never. I have a friend, a new friend that I'll be interviewing the podcast that totally chose out is very, very connected to God and also are two things and God told her to go back in? Wow. So she's back in. And, you know, that's an interesting, it's an interesting thought
Unknown Speaker 40:09
it would be so interesting to get to get back involved in the church with my new perspective, and my new understanding that like, all of its real, and none of its real, like, none of this is real, unless you want it to be real. And it's okay, this sounds fun, let's let this be real. For now. Like, I just, it's just so it is so clear and evident in my life, that we are spiritual beings, oh, 100 having this physical experience and that we get to choose and, and it's just a choice. And, and I really like it really nothing is right and nothing is wrong. And it's they're all just experiences. And so having that knowing deeply within me, you look at the world differently, right? You look at everything differently. And because you you don't you're not trying to defend something you're not trying to, you know, like profess something, it's just like, everything is interesting isn't so interesting. And, and so wouldn't it be interesting to go back to the Mormon church and like, sit in Gospel doctrine class and be like, Whoa, this is a cool story. Yeah, like, how can I learn from this, instead of trying to make it mean something about who I am, right. And that's kind of where I've landed. Yeah, with all of it is, there's so much beauty in everything. And you get to choose what you want to attach to and what you don't want to attach to. And, and so I can see the beauty of the church. And I can also see the shadow and the darkness that come from it. But choosing to focus on that was not helpful for me to like, what I got stuck in that. And I was angry. And the way that I showed up in the world was not healthy and not productive, and not in alignment with love. And I can see that so clearly. Yeah. And now I'm kind of able to, like, release that and love it. And just say, Wow, thank you for for how you showed up in my life. Yeah. And really, it feels better.
Unknown Speaker 42:14
Well, it's finding the gifts I think in anything, any trauma that we go through. When we're able to find and see the gifts. That's when it Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 42:22
that's really what it is. You're right. Now it's finding and it gets in any everything.
Unknown Speaker 42:26
So how was your mom with everybody kind of choosing out?
Unknown Speaker 42:29
You know, I think, I think that my mom struggled, I know that I'm certain that she struggled. And, but I'm also certain that she grew and learned so much from every single one of us kind of going through our own experience. And she is so loving and accepting. And you know, my brother just wrote a book about his psychedelic journeys and like, you know, and the books called Holy shit, we're alive and my mom's just like, okay, Dad, you got like, alright, we're doing this like she's just like, you know, the most supportive, loving, non judgmental, I'm telling you, she's the most Christ like human. Oh, I love that. Yeah, she's and she's just, I want to be more like my mom. I tell Mike that all the time and like, I just need to be more like Margie. How can I just be more like Margie? She's just, and I look at that. And I do see how, like, my mom is who she is because she gave her life to Christ. She has given her whole heart and her whole life to Jesus Christ through the Mormon church. And that avenue for her has worked really beautifully and brought her so much comfort and peace and, and love. And without that I don't she would It would be so sad. Yeah, you know, I remember a time when I just wanted to, I wanted the church to get blasted like someone was suing the church for like, trying to sue trying to sue the church for like tithing they'd paid and years ago, I'm like, Yeah, take him down. And what, like, Let's take him down and justice. Yes. And I'm just like, No, don't my mom will be so that's so funny. Oh, my God, which is such a cool place to be. But it's taken. It's taken a lot of interesting journeys to go. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And not easy. Not easy.
Unknown Speaker 44:22
So it's Mike religious.
Unknown Speaker 44:24
So Mike grew up Catholic but never really went to church. Yeah. And so he's never really been religious but he has a he definitely has a connection with the higher power and is very open very open. Oh, that's
Unknown Speaker 44:43
good. Yeah. So how has your has your really I've been assuming your relationship to God has shifted.
Unknown Speaker 44:49
Yes. Did God die constantly shifting? Well, I think I threw the baby out with the bathwater for sure. When I like kind of got divorced and Um, you know, like I kind of, I started going to a church called k two, which was beautiful and a great space for me while I was kind of trying to reconcile my anger and, and, and then that started feeling like, that was just like a non domination denominational, like, you know, you'd go and drink coffee and there'd be like bands that play and just, it was just like fun. And, and that was a good transition for me. But that even became very, like, just a little bit too stuck in the old in like the Old Testament. And it's like I just was I just need to say like, what's going on now? What's going on now. And that's when I kind of started, I really started getting into Abraham Hicks. And just that just shifted everything for me. And then started doing, you know, got really getting into the spiritual work like meditation and Eckhart Tolle a and Michael singer. And, and Mike kind of went on that journey with me, which was really beautiful. Like, we both just, like, dove into the Michael singer stuff. And that really opened us up, you know, to just consciousness. Yeah. And to this, this, like deeper connection. And that, that changes you. And once you you can't ever go back. Like once you experience it. Like, right, you can't go back you're like, Well,
Unknown Speaker 46:29
yeah, this powerful. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. So God has shifted,
Unknown Speaker 46:36
God has shifted, so I'm, like, right now. And, well, when I started kind of bringing God back into my life that happened through talking to my dad, again, I lost my dad to colon cancer, and I started just talking to my dad, and, and almost just like praying to my dad. And then, um, and then I kind of started realizing that like, you know, through all the studying, I'd done through all these spiritual teachers, like, my dad is God, and I am God, and you are God. And God is everywhere and everything and whether I'm praying to my dad, or to, you know, the sun, it's the same. And, you know, but, and so that really opened me up to like, wow, but, but where I'm at now with God is like, I really find myself missing the relationship I had with my heavenly Father, right? Like I do, there is something that happens within me when I'm sad, or I need help, and I, and I'll pray, and I'm praying to my heavenly Father. And in my mind, he is like, the, this like, white Jesus person that's got the beard and wears the white and, you know, but for whatever reason, I really push that away for so long. And I'm like, God's a woman. I know, it was a woman, you know, and I rejected that he, that it was a he, and for whatever reason, like the connection that was established for me with God was, was a man. And so it's interesting how, like, you know, sometimes I'll fall back to that, and, and then that's kind of the vision in my head. But you know, I started reading A Course in Miracles a few years ago. And that really changed a lot for me. Yeah, it's a beautiful book. And it really does something. It's the most spiritual book I've ever read in my whole life. And it was the closest thing to like, reading the Book of Mormon or the Bible that I've experienced, but, but that like, really gives you like, it really does shift, you know, everything inside of you. And that opened me up to like, yeah, a different relationship with God, that is really beautiful. And yeah, when my daughter, my daughter was in a longboarding accident, like a year and a half ago and was in a coma for 10 days. And you know, she that was, that really shocked me. Yeah. And yeah, that really took me to some really interesting conversations with God. And my dad, and kind of just like, with this, also with this understanding that none of this is real. This is all an illusion. So it was very confusing because it was like, Okay, I want my Briella you need be here. Please do live with me for a little bit longer. Like, I understand that this is just like, this thing that we're doing but like, please, you know, choose them. Yeah. And that quote from a course in America kept running through my brain. Nothing real can be threatened. And nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the hand of God. And I would repeat that over and over, nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Okay, I know that what's real is that Brielle and I are connected spiritually on this, that's real. We're always going to be together, we're always going to be connected. You know, and nothing unreal, even exists. It's just an illusion. And I'm like, none of this Israel, this is all like, and I that really grounded me. And that really connected me back to the truth. And I remember, I remember thinking, whatever Braille chooses to do, because I do believe Brielle chose to come back to this physical plane. And it was like whatever she chooses, I have to honor because this isn't, this isn't what's real anyway. So if she, if this is part of her path, and what she's choosing, then I have to honor that. But I have to remember, this is not even real. Yeah. And it was very helpful, you know, in my darkest moments,
Unknown Speaker 51:21
that's beautiful. I mean, it is hard sometimes to really fathom, you know, we know that there's no beginning no end. At least, that's my belief. And that, I think it's challenging sometimes to have that perspective of no beginning no end. And yeah, that this is just a little blip in our existence. And that it is, you know, when you talk about illusion, I think a lot of people when you start kind of dabbling in to this kind of idea, and it freaks the brain out. Yeah, a little bit, because this table feels real. Yeah, talking to yet right now feels real. And that's part of the, that's part of the point of the emotional body and the different experiences that we get to have through all the bodies the mental, emotional, physical, soul body. And, and like you've so beautifully shared, many times it is there's no right or wrong, because it's all just choice. And it's all just experience for our expansion. Totally. And I think that that actually gives us quite everything that I'm learning and everything that I'm growing, is that we are powerful, magnetic, magnificent beings, and that we do have the power of choice and we can heal and that we can do all these things that Jesus did, and then some. And when we start really embodying and becoming more and more aware of our Christ itself that is within, then life does get to be more of this, this event that we get to enjoy and play out and create and it you know, it doesn't mean that we're not going to have things that are challenging, but the you know, it's that Pain is pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional, kind of Yeah, mentality that really and I can imagine going through that with with Brielle was a pretty pivotal moment in both of your
Unknown Speaker 53:12
lives, ya know, it changed everything for me, like I came out of that a different person, I get my back. And then so did she. And like, it was so weird, like the things that I used to be interested in just for fun, I was not interested anymore. Like it shifted something really potent, came into me and shifted me internally. And it's been really cool.
Unknown Speaker 53:38
Yeah, that's been how long now? It's not been
Unknown Speaker 53:41
a year and a half. Yeah, not actually like not even a year and a half years.
Unknown Speaker 53:45
Isn't that long ago? My
Unknown Speaker 53:46
goodness. No. Yeah, a year and a half. March of 2020. I know. And she's doing awesome. And she's just so blessed. And so like, Lucky. First of all, things could have been really bad. But yeah, she's, she's really doing great.
Unknown Speaker 54:05
That's so good. I know. Happy.
Unknown Speaker 54:07
I know what a trip huh?
Unknown Speaker 54:09
Right. That was That was really scary. That was very
Unknown Speaker 54:13
scary. I know you've had a lot to do with that spiritual process that I had a friend who did some really beautiful work for Brielle while she was in a coma Yeah. And that was very helpful so Thank you You're welcome guys all there's lots of people who did a lot of beautiful spiritual work for her
Unknown Speaker 54:33
see you have community without religion.
Unknown Speaker 54:36
Yeah, I know. I do. You're right. I do. I know. Can we just like maybe like, sing hymns though? And like a hymns
Unknown Speaker 54:44
when you will start listening to the worming No, but there's so pretty well, let's make up our own
Unknown Speaker 54:50
hymns that are more I don't know. There's a lot of
Unknown Speaker 54:54
it's so true. Like some of those some of those drivers. You know, some of the old primary songs are just like Wait, hold on here. You're like,
Unknown Speaker 55:01
what are we programming? Yeah, exactly. Especially like the intuition. One is a big one, right? And this is I'm developing a free course on this. So this is why it's in the forefront of my mind. But, you know, when we were at the height of our intuition when we choose to step out of Mormonism, right, because you are listening so, so intently and you get this answer. And it's so powerful to the point of where you choose out and you make, I mean, you're ripping your foundation out when you choose to step out of your religion, nine times out of 10. And, and then we think we have this subconscious programming, that our intuition is tied to the Holy Ghost. Yeah. And now I'm stepping on this religion that doesn't like wait, yeah, holy shit. Like, I don't even know, what is my intuition? Do I even believe in it? Do I even I don't have the Holy is this interesting? Freak out that our brain does? Yes. And
Unknown Speaker 55:54
I will say that's the biggest thing that I really tried to implement into Braille was like, I never learned how to trust my intuition. I never knew I had my own intuition. I never it was sort
Unknown Speaker 56:05
of something outside of Yeah. And only if we're worthy. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 56:09
And that is something that I think is so important to instill in these young kids. Like, I agree, listen to those feet, listen to that gut feeling like, I mean, something that's your higher being at the higher power, it's communicating with you. And yeah, you know,
Unknown Speaker 56:26
or even, I mean, all these pieces, we're talking about kids, all these kids are so empathic, they're so like, why is up with that? They're just, I believe very strongly that these kids that are coming in, have a lot more gifts, and actually have more the veils, quote, unquote, Vels. removed. Yeah. So that they do have because we all have these abilities, we all have the ability to see and hear and feel because I'm a big feeler. And these kids are coming in with these gifts, but they don't understand it because the to their parents don't have tools. And so we get, we get to then teach them more and more like my daughter, Alexis, especially, she's all my kids are very empathic, but Alexa, little bit more. So a lot of she's had to learn that. Okay, I have a headache, right? My stomach hurts. Is this mine? Yeah. And that just that alone? Like, yeah, the power of questions. Yes. Is amazing at any meeting. Yeah. You know, is this belong to you? Okay, it's not mine, you know, and just listening and trusting that first answer that comes when you ask that question. That's your answer. That's your answer. That's so
Unknown Speaker 57:29
interesting. And if you can teach your kids that. I mean, we can't just be helicopter parenting our children for the rest of their lives. Like at some point, they've got to learn how to listen to their own intuition. And the sooner you get them to do that, yeah, the better. Yeah, power. Parenting is just hard right now. No matter what. Yeah, I mean, good grief. Oh. Well,
Unknown Speaker 58:01
is there anything that you you, you would love to leave with our listeners of, you know, if they're in that place of struggling at any level?
Unknown Speaker 58:12
Well, I think that a lot of people are experiencing cognitive dissonance right now, in some form or another, where their beliefs are being challenged, whether it's politically, whether it's, you know, socially, whether it's with religion, and people can really suffer with cognitive dissonance, where you believe something, and then you get this new information that contradicts what you believe. And it leaves you in this very uncomfortable, uncertain and kind of defensive space that you have to work through, you have to work through it. And so, I would encourage anyone who's kind of living like I had, I kind of just currently went through it again, with like, my political beliefs. You know, like, I always kind of considered myself to be more left leaning. I'm a registered Democrat. And a lot has happened in the last few years where I'm like, Whoa, wait a minute, hold on. No, maybe this isn't. And I went through a lot of cognitive dissonance with it. Or I'm like, wait, no, like, this can't be like, you know, I had new information given to me, and that I read and I was, you know, really put thoughtfulness into that contradicted the belief that I had already established. And you have to make room for that. And you have to lean into that and, and you have to allow yourself to be wrong, or to just not even be wrong just to evolve, just reopened. Let yourself like I hope that I don't have the same beliefs in 10 years that I do now. I hope I'm looking back and laughing at myself in five years. and being like, I cannot believe you believe that, you know, that's the goal is you want to continue to evolve, and grow and expand. And when you're stuck in a way of believing or thinking, and, and you're, you're not, it's not settling well, like, that's what I experienced when I fell in love with these gay guys at the salon, I was like, wait a minute, I'm not supposed to feel this way, like you're supposed to be wrong in your life is. And these men were like so loving and committed in these committed relationships. And that were more beautiful than any relationship I've ever seen. And it was like, that created cognitive dissonance. I struggled with that. And that's what eventually led me to have to say, you know, this religion isn't working for me anymore. And I have to let myself move through that so that I can be free of that uncomfortable, sticky, yucky space that people live their whole lives in. Because they just can't let themselves evolve. And so that would be my biggest takeaway to anyone I think, would just say, We're all I think, experiencing that in a lot of different ways in the world right now. And it means something. And it's, it's challenging your beliefs. And it's, it should and we should be challenging. We should be questioning everything right now. And let yourself go there and see what happens.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:19
There's such beauty in that. Yes. Such beauty. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:23
Yeah, it's really interesting. That would be my, my takeaway. I don't know.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:29
No, that's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. And you just recently started up a new venture.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:34
I know my so. So fun. So funny. My boyfriend's a golfer. So my friend and I started golfing. And turns out a lot of women want to golf. Yeah, it's been so funny, because golf is such an intimidating sport. And it's like, there's so much masculinity around it, and there's so much intimidation around it for women. But when you actually break through that, and you learn, and you learn how to swing and hit the ball, it's kind of a form of meditation. And it's this beautiful, like exercise to get you out into the world and kind of back into your body. And, and, like, having to constantly be pushing towards like, a better swing and a better follow through until like, there's something that is really good for the brain. Yeah, that happens. And there's a reason why like 6 million women started golfing last year, 6 million new women golfers in 2020. Wow. Women want to get out I think women want to get off their phones and out of the TV and connect with the with women, and they want to do something active and they want to be outside. And I think Golf is a beautiful game that you can learn to play and play with your loved ones and play till you're very old. It's it's just a great game to learn. So, long story short, my friend Jen and I started a company called for all and we're trying to get more women to come learn the game without the intimidation. So Oh, that's so awesome. What's the website and WWW dot for all.com? fo r e? Oh, I love it for all that. I know when I say you guys are starting. I'm like, Oh my gosh, she got involved with us.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:17
I don't I do. I shared with you. I'm not a big golfer. But my mom is my family is my husband is and so I'll go every once well, and there is something about being out and spending time in the cart and some of the courses that I've been to they're stunning. Yeah, they're absolutely candidly that you're like, yeah, and they're it. And in that it's a beautiful experience. And I'm like I'm going down to go to Sedona with my mom to go because she loves golfing. And so we're going to go and do that. So good. I don't know i For me, it's the patient's part about nine holes. I'm like, Alright, how many mornings? Oh, no,
Unknown Speaker 1:03:54
I don't ever pay more than nine. Oh, it's always 18 Oh, I never. I've only played 18 Like a few times. And I'm like, I just don't I don't enjoy that. Like nine is perfect. Yeah. I'll go play nine holes with you.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:07
Okay, let's do it.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:08
Let's do it. Because then we can talk. I know, it's such a great way to like, connect with your friends and get out and do something active. But you can still talk and socialize and you add a drink to the mix. And it's a guy no good time.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:20
You're like, well, thank you. Thank
Unknown Speaker 1:04:23
you so much. Thank
Unknown Speaker 1:04:23
you for everything you do. And thank you for the beauty you add to my life and thank you for all of your spiritual guidance and for everything that you put out in the world. It's so beautiful. I just felt so lucky to have you as a friend and soulmate. And just thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you're good to the car.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:41
Well, I appreciate that. You're sharing your story. I know that it's not always easy to do and no it was good for me. Very healing. Beautiful. Love you.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:49
Love you.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:52
Thank you for joining us in this conversation today. And really for holding space every time I have a guest that comes and sits down across For me, there's such a sacredness and then sharing their story and then from such a heart centered, vulnerable place. If you are feeling called to share your story, please reach out you can DM me or email me. You can find my contact information on my website at Amanda Joy loveland.com. And again, make sure that you are subscribed to my email list and head over to Apple podcasts to leave me a five star review and I will be continuing to read reviews on on each episode. As always, you are not alone in your journey. We are here to support each other and you've got this. Sending you all so much
